Trying to raise my kids the best I can

Friday, August 10, 2007

Good grief

So I spent the entire day in bed with morning sickness; even calling in sick to work. All I could eat was a little bit of candy and a sip of water.

But that's not what I came here to vent about. After a full day in bed I pulled together enough strength to drag myself to the computer where I checked my email and my Gentle Christian Mother friends. And whaddaya know, I get myself involved in a little debate about vaccines. This thread starts out: "When people say that God gave us medicine/vaccines for us to use, how do I argue against that?" And all these anti-vaxers rally around her with their bogus stats. So I slip in and innocently add to the conversation: "But they are still scientific advancements provided by God. You've got to be kidding yourself if you think the good they've done in the past wasn't worth their invention. " And one of them comes back with an analogy to the creation of the nuclear bomb and this little jab "I would also love to discuss further sometime how many people, Christians among them, have placed doctors and pharmaceuticals as idols in their lives, little gods to whom they are slaves." Which I ignored because at that point I was more interested in debating the ladies who were denying any good that the polio vaccine has done! -complete with bogus stats and researchers and studies. And I'm starting to get really fed up and I say that their denials are equivalent to denying the Holocaust. I explain that I agree with them on certain points but it's hard to listen to them when they mix lies with the truth. So they say I'm being condescending and that I have admitted that it's only my opinion. My opinion? My opinion that vaccines have saved lives? Are they for real?! So I'm like "I never said it was my opinion. It's a fact. " And one of them asks me for some support for my fact so I'm like "you can start by looking up Polio on Wikipedia". Sheesh. This is ridiculous.


  • At 7:32 AM, Blogger icefox said…

    Sounds like Godwin's law occurred and you should have just left the conversation.'s_Law

  • At 9:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Hmm if you despise these people so much why hang out on that board??? You obviously have a lack of respect for their opinion. There are always two sides to a debate if it is not done respectfully it becomes an argument.

  • At 10:16 PM, Anonymous Dana said…

    never heard of Goodwin's law before - thanks for the link icefox- this thread she is mentioned only got to page two before she brought up the Holocaust- so what does that mean?

  • At 1:39 PM, Blogger Deena said…

    Wow, you guys read my blog too?

  • At 9:51 PM, Anonymous Dana said…

    i read almost all the gcm'rs blogs- if they link them in theor siggie i stop by them from time to time.

  • At 9:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Deena the thread you posted on was not a debate thread. If fact there are no debate boards at GCM, although there are discussions that we have. The thread was someone who was asking for advice on a topic that had nothing to do with whether the polio vaccination had saved lives. When you came to post your first comment was:

    But they are still scientific advancements provided by God. You've got to be kidding yourself if you think the good they've done in the past wasn't worth their invention.

    Nothing before that warranted that comment.

    You have a soap box and seem to have an issue or two that you feel strongly about. That is fine but it can be done in a respectful way.

    Is this respectful

    I'm sorry, but you are GREATLY underestimating the lives saved by the polio vaccine and it just shows me the ridiculousness of the anti-vaccine crowd. It's very difficult to take anti-vaccine arguements seriously when lies are mixed in with the truth here.

    Deena no one is saying you are not bright, or that you have not researched your point. BUT so have others and they have come to a very different conclusion.

    Can you not accept that?

  • At 10:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    WOW...I am really shocked to come and read the anger and the harshness in what you write about your "friends" that you fellowship with. How sad and hurtful!

    And I have to echo the other comment....

    "Hmm if you despise these people so much why hang out on that board???"

  • At 8:15 AM, Blogger Mary said…

    I read lots of GCM blogs too. ;)

    And I never posted stats. I stated a principle - the reason I choose not to vaccinate. That's all. :)

  • At 12:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I completely agree with you Deena and find it interesting the reactions you’ve received on your blog. There were quite a few criticisms regarding your frustration with the debate (or otherwise stated to be synonymously “a discussion”). Actually I like your enthusiasm in such a debate. It seems though, that some of the persons involved are more concerned about the tone used than the actual facts.

    Like saying, I can’t believe you told me the sun is yellow in THAT way and got frustrated about it, when we all clearly know our opinion on the sun being blue is our own choice. Yeah, sure, it’s everyone’s personal preference as far as what beliefs they hold in vaccines, however the facts do state the obvious, whether people choose to believe them or not, or choose to get vaccines fro personal reasons or not.

    Hey, to each his own, definitely. However I firmly agree with your point of view and the understanding also of being frustrated with such a black and white situation.

    So let’s take opinions out of the picture for a second. Let’s take a look at what the (CDC) Center for Disease Control (of the WORLD) has to say about it.

    Just how is it we’ve eliminated so many diseases in our country, and the world, how do the majority of the deadliest diseases keep dwindling down?

    Check out the history of CDC’s progress in tracking *and eradicating* our biggest health problems: disease.

    [See History below.]
    As also stated on their website are the many benefits and reasons vaccinations are so important to our world right now.

    Facts: that’s all –
    Let’s get rid of the opinions.

    Probably the best example of the impact of vaccines is the
    vaccine that prevents meningitis caused by the bacterium
    Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib).
    The current Hib vaccine was first introduced to this country
    in 1990. At that time Hib was the most common cause of
    bacterial meningitis, accounting for approximately 15,000
    cases and 400 to 500 deaths every year. The incidence of
    cases and deaths per year had been steady for decades.

    After the current Hib vaccine was introduced, the incidence of Hib
    meningitis declined to fewer than **FIFTY** cases per year! The
    power of the Hib vaccine is that most pediatricians and family
    practitioners working today saw its impact.

    In some ways, vaccines are victims of their own success though.
    >> Most young parents today have never seen a case of
    measles, mumps, German measles, polio, diphtheria, tetanus,
    or whooping cough. As a result, some of these parents question
    the continued need for vaccines.

    Vaccines should be given for three reasons:
    . Some diseases are so prevalent in this country that a
    decision not to give a vaccine is a decision to risk that
    disease (for example, pertussis).
    . Some diseases are still present in the environment. These
    diseases continue to occur, but at fairly low levels (for
    example, measles, mumps, and German measles). If
    immunization rates drop, outbreaks of these diseases will
    again occur and children will die from our lack of vigilance.
    This is exactly what happened in the late 1980s and early
    1990s when immunization rates against measles dropped.
    The result was 11,000 hospitalizations and more than a
    hundred deaths caused by measles. Now, due to an
    increase in measles immunization rates, there are only
    about a hundred cases of measles and no deaths every
    year in the United States.
    . Some diseases have been virtually eliminated from this
    country (such as polio and diphtheria). However, these
    diseases continue to cause outbreaks in other areas of the
    world. Given the high rate of international travel, these
    diseases could be easily imported by travelers or

    CONCERN: Infants are too young to get vaccinated.
    Children are immunized in the first few months of life because
    several vaccine-preventable diseases infect them when they
    are very young. For example:
    . Pertussis infects about 8,000 children, causing five to ten
    deaths every year in the United States. Almost all of the
    cases are in children less than one year of age.
    . Children under two years old are 500 times more likely to
    catch Hib meningitis if someone with a Hib infection is
    living in the home.
    . About 90 percent of newborns whose mothers are
    infected with hepatitis B will contract hepatitis and go on
    to develop chronic liver disease, cirrhosis, and possibly
    liver cancer.
    For these reasons, it is very important for infants to be fully immunized
    against certain diseases by the time they are six
    months old.
    Fortunately, young infants are surprisingly good at building immunity
    to viruses and bacteria. About 95 percent of children
    given DTaP, Hib, and hepatitis B virus vaccines will be fully protected
    by two years of age.

    CONCERN: Vaccines cause autism.
    Recently, stories carried by the media have caused some parents
    to fear that the combination measles-mumps-rubella
    (MMR) vaccine causes autism. Summarized below are (1)
    studies used to support the notion that MMR causes autism,
    (2) studies that disprove the notion that MMR causes autism,
    and (3) other investigations into the causes of autism.
    The .Wakefield. studies
    Two studies have been cited by those claiming that the MMR
    vaccine causes autism. Both studies are critically flawed.
    Studies showing that MMR vaccine does not cause autism
    Four studies have been performed that disprove the notion
    that MMR causes autism.

    In 1999, Brent Taylor and coworkers examined the relationship
    between receipt of MMR and development of autism in a
    well-controlled study. Taylor examined the records of 498 children
    with autism or autism-like disorder. Cases were identified
    by registers from the North Thames region of England before
    and after the MMR vaccine was introduced into the
    United Kingdom in 1988. Taylor then examined the incidence
    and age at diagnosis of autism in vaccinated and unvaccinated
    children. He found that (1) the percentage of children vaccinated
    was the same in children with autism as in other children
    in the North Thames region; (2) no difference in the age of
    diagnosis of autism was found in vaccinated and unvaccinated
    children; and (3) the onset of symptoms of autism did not occur
    within two, four, or six months of receiving the MMR vaccine.
    Subsequent studies by Natalie Smith published in the Journal of
    the American Medical Association and by Hershel Jick in the
    British Medical Journal found that the increase in the number of
    children reported to have autism was not associated with an
    increase in the use of the MMR vaccine.
    The largest study to examine the relationship between the
    MMR vaccine and autism was reported in the New England
    Journal of Medicine in November 2002. About 537,000 children
    in Denmark who either did or did not receive the MMR
    vaccine were examined for about six years. The incidence of
    autism was the same in children who did or did not receive
    the MMR vaccine.
    Studies on the causes of autism
    One of the best ways to determine whether a particular disease
    or syndrome is genetic is to examine the incidence in
    identical and fraternal twins. Using a strict definition of autism,
    when one twin has autism, approximately 60 percent of identical
    and 0 percent of fraternal twins have autism. Using a
    broader definition of autism (that is, autistic spectrum disorder),
    approximately 92 percent of identical and 10 percent of
    fraternal twins have autism. Therefore, autism clearly has a genetic
    60 Years of Accomplishments
    Rubella was eliminated in the United States.
    CDC provided support for laws restricting access to over-the-counter medications used in methamphetamine production in Georgia.
    SARS was first reported in Asia. CDC provided guidance for surveillance, clinical and laboratory evaluation, and reporting.
    CDC reported that U.S. newborn HIV infections were down 80 percent since 1981.
    CDC learned of the first anthrax case; the victim was a 63-year-old Florida man. He would be the first in a series of domestic terrorism victims of infection by anthrax sent through the mail.
    Children's Health Act of 2000 established Safe Motherhood, a CDC program to better understand the burden of maternal complications and mortality.
    CDC’s Laboratory Response Network was established.
    For the first time since 1981, AIDS was diagnosed in more African-American and Hispanic men than in gay white men.
    CDC participated in the nationally televised White House event of the Presidential Apology for the Tuskegee Study.
    CDC found measurable levels of serum cotinine in the blood of 88 percent of American nonsmokers.
    CDC recommended offering HIV testing to all pregnant women.
    Polio elimination certified in the Americas.
    CDC investigated an outbreak of a mysterious illness in the southwestern United States, later known as hantavirus.
    The National Academy of Sciences reported on a dangerous new phenomenon: the emergence of new and virulent diseases that are resistant to antibiotics.
    PHS recommended all women of childbearing years consume 400 mg of folic acid/day to reduce the risk of pregnancies affected by spina bifida and anencephaly.
    For the first time, CDC reported the possible transmission of HIV from a dentist to a patient in Florida during an invasive procedure.
    CDC reported every 6 of 10 killings involved guns, making firearms the 8th leading cause of death, after diabetes but ahead of liver disease.
    CDC established the National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion.
    CDC reported that about 7,000 workers die on the job annually; 42 percent of female workers who die on the job are murdered.
    The Office on Smoking and Health, which targets the nation’s primary preventable health problem, became part of CDC.
    CDC study stated polysaccharide, a new vaccine, was a cost-effective means to protect children who were at risk for developing Haemophilus influenzae.
    CDC studied Vietnam veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange during combat and later fathered babies; no increased risk of birth defects was found.
    CDC established a Violence Epidemiology Branch to apply public health prevention strategies to child abuse, homicide, and suicide.
    CDC advised of the possible risk of Reye syndrome associated with the use of aspirin by children with chickenpox and flu-like symptoms.
    The first diagnosis of the fatal disease later known as AIDS was described in the June 5, 1981, issue of MMWR.
    MMWR published the first report on a newly recognized illness associated with tampon use: toxic shock syndrome.
    First Healthy People report published.
    Alcorn County, Mississippi, reported cases of the first outbreak of tuberculosis resistance to formerly effective drugs.
    Global eradication of smallpox was achieved.
    CDC investigated two outbreaks of a previously unknown deadly hemorrhagic fever, later known as Ebola, in Zaire and Sudan.
    The last victim of variola major smallpox, the more severe form of the disease, was reported.
    CDC planned a major campaign to reverse the downward trend in the number of Americans immunized.
    MMWR reported that lead emissions in a residential area constituted a public health threat—contrary to popular assumption at the time.
    CDC assisted Sierra Leone in fighting a new outbreak of Lassa fever, a mysterious lethal viral disease
    The National Center for Health Statistics conducted the first National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey to capture the health status of Americans.
    The Communicable Disease Center became the Center for Disease Control.
    CDC constructed a “biocontainment lab” to protect scientists while they work with deadly and infectious pathogens.
    CDC investigated an unidentified, highly infectious respiratory disease in Pontiac, Michigan, later identified as Legionnaire’s disease.
    The Foreign Quarantine Service, one of the oldest and most prestigious units of the Public Health Service, joined CDC.
    CDC announced a national measles eradication campaign at the American Public Health Association meeting.
    New surveillance systems added to the original National Surveillance Program of 1952 included measles, shigellosis, tetanus, and trichinosis.
    The first Surgeon General’s report linking smoking to lung cancer was released. It stated that “cigarette smoking is a health hazard of sufficient importance in the United States to warrant appropriate remedial action.”
    CDC tested the newly developed Jet Gun and vaccine for smallpox.
    CDC played a key role in one of the greatest triumphs of public health: the eradication of smallpox.
    CDC took over publication of Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR).
    The Tuberculosis Program moved from the Public Health Service to CDC.
    Dr. Robert Kissling developed the fluorescent antibody test for rabies, first used in a field trial with 100 percent accuracy.
    A CDC team traveled overseas, for the first time, to Southeast Asia to respond to an epidemic of cholera and smallpox.
    National guidelines for influenza vaccine were developed.
    Dr. William Cherry found the first practical use for the fluorescent technique and used it to research communicable diseases of bacterial origin.
    CDC established the Polio Surveillance Program.
    Alexander D. Langmuir, MD, MPH, set up a leptospirosis laboratory in Jacksonville, Florida.
    CDC reported first case of rabies in a bat.
    U.S. Surgeon General Dr. Leonard A. Scheele reported that the Communicable Disease Center was ready to combat possible biological warfare.
    The Epidemic Intelligence Service was established to help protect against biological warfare and manmade epidemics.
    Fifteen CDC staffers conducted the first investigation of an epidemic of polio in Paulding County, Ohio.
    The US was declared free of malaria as a significant public health problem.
    CDC gained worldwide recognition for the quality and quantity of its contributions to the taxonomy of the Enterobacteriaceae.
    In San Francisco, CDC took over the Public Health Service Plague Laboratory, thus acquiring an Epidemiology Division.
    The Communicable Disease Center was organized in Atlanta, Georgia, on July 1.


  • At 6:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I find it laughable you consider yourself an "all natural mother" , yet you continue to inject your children with toxins and poisons being passed off as vaccines. You obviously dislike that particular area of your message avoid it. I'm guessing it will bring you less stress , and it will be a huge relief to those on the board as well. A relatively harmless thread was turned BY YOU into a debate. You had nothing useful to add , yet you jumped in and began name calling.


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